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Morality not soley from the Bible

Abstract:
I am a non-believer.

You may, therefore, define me by whichever descriptor suits your worldview. I could be a naturalist, a materialist, an atheist, a secularist or any other term that allows my beliefs to be defined in relation to others who believe essentially the same thing....

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Jeff Schooley

posted 2/22/07 @ 1:13 PM EST

Sara,

I'd like to respond to this statement in your column: "I think there is a prevalent mindset among much of the religious community that can be simply stated: One has no measure of morality without religion."
You take issue with this statement and rightfully so. However, the issue you take with it is that of the punitive measures that follow the breaking of some rule within the moral code (whichever one someone happens upon and takes as his or her own). What I was disappointed to see lacking in your response to this sort ill-concieved thought (for, indeed, it appears as if you are bright enough to work through this issue) was the idea that maybe morality doesn't proceed from religion, but that religion proceeds from morality. I suspect the whole issue (which you do call a chicken and the egg issue) is about poor definitions of religion. It comes from an idea that religion is a thing you believe, not a thing you do. This is, I believe, a relatively knew (mis)understanding of religion (probably spawned during the Enlightenment or maybe even before in the Reformation). In fact, some relics of this idea that religion only exists in practice, not belief, still exists today. How does that old hymn go, "They will know we are Christians by our love, by our love..." It's a much different song if love is replaced by "creeds" ("Yes they will know we are Christians by our creeds, by our creeds..." HA!).
Now, however, I reach a point where I turn against you, so to speak. I would say that up until now you and I were fellows in thought, but there seems to be an inconsistancy that I can't get around. If you agree with me that religion is about action, then your opening sentence (and they do teach us that leads are important in journalism, as well as English literature, don't they?) says "I am a non-believer." This, however, if we still agree with my premise is not only false, but impossible. You see, you don't even have to identify your morality (which you don't do, being fine with all the different titles given to you), because you're already living it. You can't escape it. And if you're living it, you're acting and if you're acting, you're practicing your religion (dare I even say, worshipping?). Thus, the only difference between you and those Christian who hold their Bibles so high is that they name the One they worship and root their adoration in a historical figure. You attempt to poke holes in their faith, while in reality they should be pestering you! Who are you worshipping? (The column makes me think His name is Common Sense). What has Lord Common Sense done for you in your life? Why does Lord Common Sense allow there to exist other religions? Religions that use His principles, but not only don't have the decency to pay Him the honor He deserves for being the foundation (and instead worship YHWH or a dirty carpenter named Jesus or a prophet whose named after a boxer – Muhammad), but also don't use His principles well! It seems to me as if your God has plenty of cause for wrath!
No, Sara, you are a believer, I'm a believer, we're all believers. Some of us just do it better, insofar as we know not what we believe, but who, for even your column ends with the idea that there is something that transcends us (and therefore, you've very intelligently shut off any ideas that morality could some how come from within us) and whatever that transcendental something is, it has to be a being, maybe not like we're beings, but a being nonetheless.
Keep thinking about these issue, but please, don't be so silly as to think you're a non-believer.

Jeff Schooley
BA English Lit 2004
MA English Lit 2006
M.Div at Pittsburgh Theological Seminary (currently enrolled)
Former Forum Editor for the Daily Kent Stater

p.s. There is one other way to think about the whole morality means religion idea and that is that we don't necessarily have a religion out of what we do because our actions are often different (and, assumably, flawed) from what we actually believe and that all of us are just trying to act better on our beliefs. But once you've gone there, you understand the Christian pursuit of perfection all to well to critique. Also, you're probably going to be asked what happens to someone who doesn't do what they want to do, but does what they hate to do? You may find that an answer that points to Love and Grace is more reassuring than the other options.

Sara

posted 2/22/07 @ 9:55 PM EST

I really appreciate that you took the time to notice and consider my words. I value thoughtful input, be it assenting dissenting or both. I will respond when I have enough time to do so appropriatly.
Thanks again.
-Sara

Goldstone

posted 2/23/07 @ 6:09 AM EST

Sorry Jeff, but your comment just reads like the usual sad soggy old straw man that religious people like to indulge themselves in as a comfort. Why a comfort? Because the thought that someone can lead a good, honest, and noble life without the need of some deity or another frightens you, so you resort to a slightly patronising 'but you are a believer, just like us' argument. Give it up, it just makes you sound desperate and intellectually shallow. I can see what you're getting at, that a personal god could be celebrated by works rather than words, and don't we all wish that religious people would remember this a bit more often, but really, you don't actually need a god to do good works. Just the knowledge that it is 'for the best' is, and should be, enough for anyone.

Sara DeNunzio

posted 2/23/07 @ 7:37 PM EST

First, I might as well clarify the first statement in my essay: I believe that there are no gods, Abrahamic, or otherwise. I hope that is a clear enough starting point for discussion. Regarding this statement of non belief, you have made some bold claims, sir. I have had many discussions regarding the existence of deities, yet this is the first in which someone has tried to demonstrate, not only that a god exists, but that I believe in him without even knowing it! I applaud your audacity even while I believe it is misguided.

You posited that our actions (with regard to making moral decisions, I assume) are the inescapable expressions of our beliefs. I have no problem with this and would tend to agree. Allow me to offer an example of this in effect in my own life. My fellows are often burdened by the question of whether to use the term atheist or agnostic. I look for the answer to this question in a person's actions. Sure, I acknowledge that no one can disprove the existance of a god and am therefore agnostic in theory. But who lives their life "in theory"? I live as though there were no gods, therefore I am an atheist.

Actions follows beliefs, on that we are agreed. But that seems to be where the agreement ends. You said. "if you're acting, you're practicing your religion (dare I even say, worshipping?)" This unfortunate statement is based on the unjustified main premise that morality is necessarily derived from a diety. You have presented no evidence to support this idea and it certainly does not follow from anything that either you or I said previously. You have some serious work to do if you want to convince me that this is the case and that therefore everything else you say is also valid, though I invite you earnestly to try. As you will note, every statement following the aforementioned relies on the existance of some sentient "who" from whom I have derived my sense of morality.

You said, "for even your column ends with the idea that there is something that transcends us." I hope that this is an accidental misreading of my words rather than a purposeful misquotation! Look again please. What I said was, "we, as humans, have some basic sense of right and wrong that transcends the various religious institutions." I stated that our morality transcends our "religious institutions." The way you used my statement was in utter opposition to the spirit in which it was intended. I do not believe that there is an absolute morality that transcends human beings and therefore esists independantly of us. The opposite is true.

My closing words demonstarte this, though perhaps too subtley. I alluded to the fact that you and your ilk look to gods and religious text for your ideas about what it means to be a decent human being while my fellows and I look to more natural sources--like what is logically the best thing to do for the betterment of myself my friends family, country and all of mankind.

Yes, your way is easier and more popular, but my way is better. If I did not believe this, it would not, after all, be my way. My ideas are forever open to evaluation and beg to have shone upon them the light of reason and it is my hope that more people begin to favor this path of intellectual integrity over emotional comfort.

One last thing, If you intended to inspire a mature and repectful conversation with me, your condescedning tone was a bad way to begin. I suggest that in the future, you at least refrain from referring to my ideas as "silly." That was simply bad manners. I think even Lord Common Sense would agree.

Sara DeNunzio

posted 2/23/07 @ 8:58 PM EST

Thanks so much for reading and responding to my column. I am in basic agreement with you and thank you for bringing up the logical fallacy of the "straw man" (Arguing against a position which you create specifically to be easy to argue against, rather than the position actually held by those who oppose your point of view [qtd]). Because that would seem to indicate that the "misunderstandings" of my words were deliberate. How unfortunate.

Mr. Jesse Merino

posted 2/23/07 @ 7:15 AM EST

Sara, no one is taking your "right" to reject JESUS CHRIST as your Saviour. You will spend eternity "somewhere", but, remember this, JESUS CHRIST died for all your Sins, and to reject HIM, simply means that you will "die" in your sins and not be forgiven of them and have no chance to come to Heaven. The alternative is not pleasant to spend Eternity in, but, its your choice and no one will take that from you.

Just because you don't believe in what CHRIST stands for, doesn't mean that you are "immoral" and cant make a "right decision" for yourself or others in this secular progressive World. It seems a lot of people are turning away from CHRIST, and I feel sorry for each of them. But, as you say, its your choice to do so, and the LORD made sure each of us "has" that choice...

Be that as it may, I shall still pray for you to reconsider, as I would love to share a "cloud" with you and have wonderful conversations through out Eternity. We wont or can not 'know' everyone in this World, and when we have Eternity before us, we can each share our experiences we had in this World, if that is permissible in Heaven. I don't know what Heaven is like, except from what the "Good Book" has to say about it, but, I bet its going to be wonderful!

I wish you were there....

I wish you well...

Jesse Merino

Sara DeNunzio

posted 2/23/07 @ 8:52 PM EST

Thanks for reading. I appreciate your passion. Passion is something too many people live thier lives without. However, I do wonder why it is that you accept the Bible as the source of ultimate truth and reject all other holy texts.
I'd be interested to know.

Mr. Jesse Merino

posted 2/24/07 @ 6:51 AM EST

Simply because our LORD has RISEN! All others are dead and burried. Remember, even Ron L. Hubbard started out with his Dianetics as a book to ponder, then he got too big for himself and thought he was a god! People do that, and if they can get a lot of followers, like Sun yun Moon, then they who follow him will eventually call him a god too!

The Bible was written over thousands of years, and JESUS CHRIST was proclaimed to come, and HE fulfilled all the requirements of the Old Testaments. Coming from Bethlehem, HIS ministry, and dying and being resurected as HE was. Many people saw HIM after HIS death, burial, and resurection, and HE continued with HIS miracles afterwards.

I just pray that "you" will find our about HIS love for each of us, and what HE died for, our Salvation, so that whom ever believes in HIM and repents and gets baptised, will have everlasting life, and not burn in the fires of Hell.

Everyone has sinned, you, me, and everyone else in the World, but, its through HIS blood, that we are Saved, for those whom believe in HIM...

I wish you well...

Jesse Merino
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